Racism is fandom is hilarious! Hold on, no it isn't

[bofoddity]

So, calling a Jewish fanfic author a kike is okay now? How fucking charming.

Also, the fact that metafandom hasn't linked to any of these posts yet is very interesting.

(Unless a big one about all of this is coming up? I really hope that.)

ETA: Shouldn't post when upset. Relevant post is up here.

Comments

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I read the posts and pretty much all the comments and didn't see the part about someone being called a kike? I really want to know what happened with that, because I'm really appalled and a little scared.

My problem with all this is that I disagree so completely with mamadeb (who I like a great deal and is on my friends list) not just about the post which she admits she phrased poorly, but about the entire issue of having a Christmas ficathon, that I really don't know what to make of this. If it started good discussion about privilege, then I guess that's a good thing, but ... if it ends up going back to "Yuletide is a Christmas fic exchange" then I never know what to say because of course it is.

All most of us are asking for is some acknowledgment that when a fic exchange takes place over Christmas, co-opts symbols used for Christmas, and goes live on Christmas, that people agree that it's Christmas-based. All we want to hear is, ‘it's true and that sucks for you, but we're trying our best to not make you feel left out; I'm sorry if you do, but that’s the way it is’ Because that is the way it is.

Has anyone ever honestly claimed it's not Christmas-based? How could it not be if it goes live on Christmas? It's a ficathon, some people started it and did what they wanted to with it and then other people who wanted to participate got to decide how comfortable they were with the Christmas connection.

Background: I'm Jewish. I wasn't always Jewish but I am now and I don't celebrate Christmas in any way. This year I'll be working and happy to do it because it's extra pay. Many people who don't celebrate Christmas are very annoyed by the prevelance of Christmas but I don't really care, so maybe that impacts my opinion. (There are plenty of things I do care about, like religion in the public schools and the fact that people think there's an actual War on Christmas, or on a smaller level I care about people at work bugging me personally to participate in the yearly Christmas show which I never do and never will.) But the fact that I have to see Christmas-themed stuff in fandom and go to the mall and see Christmas decorations doesn't even register.

I guess to summarize my problem with reading about this: I'm really sorry mamadeb's post got blown out of proportion but I think she's wrong. And while there is definitely Christian privilege in this country, the Yuletide fic exchange is (IMO) such a crummy non-example of it that I don't even know where to start a discussion.

I really hope this comment didn't offend you. I don't want to offend you (or mamadeb, or any number of other people.) It's just that I've been caught up in this ever since the original post came up on my friends list, but at that point it looked like "Am I being paranoid?" "Yes." "Yeah, I guess I am." so I just ignored it. But those posts are a few days old so I can't really comment on them.

[bofoddity.livejournal.com]

Apparently kike was used in ladycat777's post, but the comment doesn't appear to be visible. (Screened, maybe?) As far as Yuletide being a Christmas-ficathon goes, I've seen some comments that indicate that Yuletide is supposed to be religiously neutral, and just as you said, that's not true.

I didn't agree with mamadeb, either, but a lot of the comments I've seen regarding this thing, especially in fandom_wank, have just felt really disturbing to me, to the point I honestly started wondering how I could have missed all that hidden nastiness. It's the unwillingness to listen on both sides that's upsetting me, and I really hope that comments like that will be worst we'll see.

And don't worry, I didn't find your comment offensive at all. I'm just seeing a lot of hurt all around right now and it's really starting to get to me.

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I guess I meant that I never heard the organizers say it was supposed to be "religiously neutral." It's not overtly religious (as in using Christian spiritual themes). And I know they certainly don't intend that only Christians should participate and you definitely don't have to write a Christmas story, but... it's on Christmas. And I don't see the problem with them having their ficathon and putting it on the date they want: It's their deal, it's not government-funded or mandatory or public and even though it's become much larger there's plenty of people out there who don't participate at all, presumably because they don't have time or don't write for small fandoms or just don't feel like it.

Some people aren't comfortable with the Christmas connection that and it's not a good thing that they feel they have to miss out but... people need to make their decisions. When I was a very religious Jew I missed out on all kinds of stuff, and even now at my current level of observance I miss out on some things (like a cool anime convention that turned out to be on Passover), but usually I didn't feel like people should have changed anything, because being a religious Jew was my deal.

[bofoddity.livejournal.com]

You're right, the organizers didn't say anything like that, and they don't mean to exclude anyone. Sometimes you just can't take all possible angles to account. And yes, it's their ficathon in the end; its success depends on how well they're able to mod it, after all, so timing needs to fit for them too.

Giving Yuletide a pass because of Christmas connection is a person's own choice in the end, of course, but I guess what annoyed me was that people seemed to be unsympathetic about the fact that someone would pass it because of religious ties. My own relationship to religion is distant at best, and I don't think that people need to change things to please an individual, but.. I don't know, I guess I wanted people to at least stop and think about it for a moment.

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I guess what's bothering me is the implication I'm seeing in some comments that if someone thinks Yuletide (the ficathon) is not a problem then you think people shouldn't want things to be inclusive and anyone who's not in the majority religion/culture should just generally shut up and deal. I absolutely don't think that... I just think people can have a Christmas ficathon if they want to and I don't really understand why that bothers anyone.

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

Minor clarification: I mean that I don't understand why it bothers anyone that it exists... I do understand why some people wouldn't want to participate in it.

[bofoddity.livejournal.com]

Full agreement. I've participated in Yuletide three times and I signed up for this year as well, and I don't think I have to feel guilty about it. I only wish that the discussion about this had been different in nature. I hope things will improve from now on.

[chopchica.livejournal.com]

Has anyone ever honestly claimed it's not Christmas-based?

Hey, I found this though ljseek (yes, I'm totally curious that way), and I just wanted to say that yes, people *have* said that to me, *numerous times*. The organizers of the exchanges are not those people - and they seem awesome in the extreme - but even in the last few days, I've lost count of the comments that have *insisted* that it's not Christmas-based. I think it's just fine that it's Christmas-based. Most everybody doing it celebrates Christmas and it brings joy and happiness to them all (and to a lot of non-Christians as well - including me, because I get to read lots of new stories).

kita was called a kike in ladycat's post (ladycat screened it because it was so upsetting for her and kita), I had my own attack in fox's journal, this has gone on for days now, and I have updates in my journal if you're curious.

I think mamadeb was wrong as well. Very, very wrong, and I've publicly said so. What it's more about now is what's *come* from this and the things I've seen people say that are taken as perfectly acceptable.

bofoddity, I'm done hijacking your journal!

[bofoddity.livejournal.com]

Yeah, there have been plenty of comments in Fandom Wank that insist that Yuletide is pagan (here (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1114158.html?thread=163537454#t163537454) for example), happily ignoring how the entire ficathon goes live.. on Christmas. I think I even saw a Finn claim that our Christmas is more pagan than Christian, never mind the fact that it's considered a Christian holiday..

I been comparing reactions to this debate to those of daily_deviant-debate in my mind and it's astounding how unsympathetic people have been during this, and I'm sorry about that. You, ladykat and kita didn't deserve to be attacked like that and it makes me angry that there hasn't been more outrage over what happened. Way too much crap has passed as acceptable during this, but not everybody thinks that's okay in any way.

People are free to hijack my journal any time, so I didn't mind at all. I hope things will finally start getting better for everybody who got hurt during this.

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I guess I meant that I didn't think the organizers had ever said it. Apparently a lot of other people have said it, but to me it makes no sense -- if it's on Christmas, it's Christmas-based.

I've since tracked down some of the really ugly stuff that has happened, and it really depresses me.

Like I said, discussions about inclusion are a good thing. I just hope people can get other examples than Christmas fic exchanges, because then maybe I could relate better. (And then there's the horrible stuff, which needs to be addressed... I wish I could say it totally surprises me but it doesn't.)

Thanks for your comment!

[inalasahl]

If anyone wants to know what's upcoming on metafandom, the links are collected here. If someone wants to suggest a link, please feel free to leave a comment on any post at the comm or e-mail metafandom at gmail dot com.

[bofoddity.livejournal.com]

My apologies, I should have investigated these things more carefully. This debate made me more upset than usual, and at some point I began to read too much into certain things. I'm sorry about that.

(Also, sorry if you get this twice, I wasn't logged on when I replied the first time.)